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What About the Gas?
#31
(09-13-2017, 01:26 PM)flying_solo Wrote: here in the U.S., you can buy 2 used Leafs for the MSRP of a (still unavailable) Solo.

If that were true here, I'd have a Leaf already. Leaf has been around about 10 years but I would not buy one that old unless it had a new battery or had only been driven Sundays. Ones about 5 years old can be had for a bit less than Solo's MSRP. If EMV doesn't show real progress in production I might buy a Leaf later this year and my Solo next year, spreading the  income from my pension over two tax-years.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#32
(09-13-2017, 03:48 PM)pogson Wrote:
(09-13-2017, 01:26 PM)flying_solo Wrote: here in the U.S., you can buy 2 used Leafs for the MSRP of a (still unavailable) Solo.

If that were true here, I'd have a Leaf already. Leaf has been around about 10 years but I would not buy one that old unless it had a new battery or had only been driven Sundays. Ones about 5 years old can be had for a bit less than Solo's MSRP. If EMV doesn't show real progress in production I might buy a Leaf later this year and my Solo next year, spreading the  income from my pension over two tax-years.
You might consider the two seater Arcimoto SRK with the enclosure option while waiting on your EMVSolo.  The SRK is certainly more similar to the SOLO than the Leaf and then buy only one SOLO if or when the SOLO specs meet your needs.
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#33
(09-13-2017, 04:12 PM)Rickb Wrote: You might consider the two seater Arcimoto SRK with the enclosure option while waiting on your EMVSolo.  The SRK is certainly more similar to the SOLO than the Leaf and then buy only one SOLO if or when the SOLO specs meet your needs.

The SRK does not appeal to me at all. It's a motorcycle. It has very little storage. The range would be fine for pharmacy, shopping, and visiting nearby towns but it would nearly eliminate the capability of the Solo to take longer trips with more legs/stages/charging stops or reaching some of my favourite hunting/fishing/gathering spots. The charging stations outside the city are just too far apart. The second seat could occasionally be useful. Maybe I could fit a deer in back there... It would be more useful minus the second seat. I do like the better seat-belts. That's about the only thing EMV should copy from SRK. I don't have specs but I suspect the SRK is less efficient in energy at moving one person from A to B than Solo, just judging from the shape. Per two people SRK is probably competitive.

With Solo, I could envision going to town and coming back with three bags of fertilizer or a bunch of bags of flour all the while being more comfortable. I could be picky, but with Solo, I imagine I can move my left leg around a lot even up close to the right leg whereas in the SRK I'm always riding a horse. Never did like horses. A lot of people have died falling off horses. I never could stay on. One stepped on my foot once. Another bolted and ran away with the sleigh I was supposed to mind...
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#34
Sits like you are sitting in a chair not on a horse.  Range option to exceed the Solo, lighter weight, better performance and handling, trailer hitch for hauling the big loads.  There is a Deliverator model with a single seat.  Check the specs and compare before you judge.  Perhaps a better option than a Leaf was my only point.
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#35
(09-13-2017, 06:51 PM)Rickb Wrote: Sits like you are sitting in a chair not on a horse.  Range option to exceed the Solo, lighter weight, better performance and handling, trailer hitch for hauling the big loads.  There is a Deliverator model with a single seat.  Check the specs and compare before you judge.  Perhaps a better option than a Leaf was my only point.
I've visited https://www.arcimoto.com/ 
and I can't find any specs or prices. There are news items but they all seem to think it's "next year" country and there are very few specs/prices found there. I watched several videos and find the Solo much more efficient which is what I like most about the Solo. SRK gets 70 miles on 12kWh, 5.83 m/kWh. Solo gets 100 miles on 16 kWh, 6.25 kWh. I still don't like the design. Just like EMV they don't seem terribly focused on production and are making endless prototypes. I think it's silly to use two motors to drive such a light vehicle. SRK is just playing with the technology rather than putting it into use. Totally enclosed it's about the same price as Solo and I like Solo better.

I eventually found the specs for Arcimoto https://www.arcimoto.com/vehicle/#specifications

I had to scroll down on the "vehicle" page.

I still prefer Solo. 130 miles on 20kWh is still less efficient than Solo. No information on range v speed etc. No information about charging times at either 110 or 220V...
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#36
Arcimoto shares your vision of sustainable transport!   Arcimoto's mission is the development of efficient sustainable transportation options.  They are totally focused on production since the SRK Gen8 reveal a couple years ago.

Dual front wheel drive motors provide for improved performance, handling, and traction control.

The Deliverator would be far more functional for The Greens and Beans Deli than the SOLO and it has a heated or cooled cargo compartment. Smile  I do like them both and the idea of No More Gas.  The most efficient will be based on final specs and road testing data.


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#37
(09-14-2017, 12:55 PM)Rickb Wrote: Dual front wheel drive motors provide for improved performance, handling, and traction control.
Front wheel drive is definitely advantageous in a light vehicle. However, two motors adds a lot of complexity and more moving parts. I expect it's a bit less efficient, too. In principle, it's like replacing one big motor with two smaller motors but you increase energy losses in bearings, air-drag inside the motor, leakage of magnetic flux and resistive losses in the windings. It's just a matter of scale. ICEs see the same effects. Only very large vehicles use multiple engines/motors. One exception are the small drones which get a real benefit of balancing the weight while reducing total weight by eliminating transmissions An EV this small really doesn't need two motors and Solo solves issues of control by putting the driven wheel on the centre line.  Arcimoto offsets the cost of a second motor by having a smaller battery and range than Solo. Their long range version fully enclosed is probably more expensive than Solo and with little real benefit in performance. Don't forget the loss in performance due to the mass of the passenger and seat.
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#38
You obviously haven't seen the specs on the SRK's twin front wheel drive motor and are making assumptions.

This SRK platform photo looks like a simple, solid, and efficiently engineered drive train package with 70% of the vehicle's weight over the twin motor front drive wheels for enhanced performance and agility in a little over a 1000# vehicle with motors centered between the front wheels.

It may be simpler than the SOLO's.


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#39
Sorry if this derailed the thread.  I'll stop with the idea of comparing the 2 vehicles battery specs, range, and drive trains.
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#40
(09-14-2017, 02:43 PM)Rickb Wrote: You obviously haven't seen the specs on the SRK's twin front wheel drive motor and are making assumptions.

This SRK platform photo looks like a simple, solid, and efficiently engineered drive train package with 70% of the vehicle's weight over the twin motor front drive wheels for enhanced performance and agility in a little over a 1000# vehicle with motors centered between the front wheels.

I'm not making assumptions. "Scale" is about mathematical/physical principles. For instance, if you examine a cube of one unit of length, it has a surface area of six square units and a volume of one cubic unit. If I cut it up into smaller cubes, say, eight cubes, the total volume/weight remains the same but the surface area is now larger, 12 square units.. Similarly, if one has a design for an electric motor, one can increase its power by lengthening it or increasing its diameter or both. Invariably the scaling causes the larger motor to be more efficient than two or more motors of similar design and total combined output equal.

An obvious example: Take a big motor and cut it into two halves. You might think the losses due to the resistance of the windings would be the same but we now miss two cross-pieces to make a circuit so more conductor has to be added to make the thing work.We need the same current as before to get the same power so our resistive losses are higher. Worst case is replacing one big motor with two identical motors. If you actually use twice the power, losses and efficiency would remain the same but you drain the battery twice as fast. So, you have to use only a fraction of the capacity of the motor and efficiency plunges. You have twice the weight, double the number of bearings and fans and internal air-resistance for no gain at all except acceleration perhaps which is rarely useful and dangerous.
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