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What About the Gas?
#21
(09-11-2017, 09:21 AM)pogson Wrote:
(06-05-2017, 11:48 AM)Qubit Wrote:
(10-03-2016, 12:30 PM)Rickb Wrote: The development of EV's and other alternative vehicles isn't to replace all ICE vehicles, but rather to help reduce our dependency on foreign oil and perhaps stretch the USA oil reserves to provide an adequate affordable supply of gas for those that choose or require gas for their ICE vehicles in the future and perhaps inadvertently help improve the environment along the way.  

I gotta respectfully disagree with that statement.

I believe the development of EV's and other alternative vehicles is: to sell a different (not necessarily better) mousetrap to get the job done. That is, to transport folks from A to B.

Any other reason would dictate that the mousetrap be provided at no profit.

I know this is an old strand and you guys may have since seen the light... but you are both wrong. You are looking through the fog at an elephant but your field of view is so narrow that one is seeing a trunk and the other a tail. Still, the creature you describe so differently is an elephant.

The big picture is that an EV is far superior to an ICEd vehicle for a large number of use-cases. An EV is much more efficient in terms of energy/mile or cost/mile if you combine capital cost, energy and maintenance. The maker who charges so little for an ICEd vehicle does so knowing he can charge monopolistic prices on parts and service. The maker who charges so much for an EV knows the EV may not come back except for tires, bearings and brakes for a decade.

It's a bit dark but millions of Floridians had to wait to fill their ICEd tanks before evacuating for a hurricane. Imagine how much simpler it would be to evacuate a city if EVs were used. Range doesn't matter if the tank is empty or the car is in the shop waiting for service. There are far more electrical outlets in the world than filling stations and they are available 24x7.

So, the world will see EVs replace a lot of ICEd vehicles because they are a better mousetrap AND the world is developing a variety of EVs because consumers and governments are demanding that be done. I, for one, will likely never buy another ICEd vehicle, both to save the planet and because I can't afford an ICEd vehicle even if it were given away for $0. I recently helped an ICEd owner do some DIY service to avoid paying nearly $1000 for professional service. His cost was ~$200 for parts and tools and about 6h of our lives shopping and working. This was just to change the oil and sparkplugs... Yes, the engine had to be partly disassembled to reach the plugs... Yes, the car had to be jacked up to drain the oil and a special socket had to be bought just to change the oil filter... ICEd vehicles cost way too much for the benefit of getting from A to B. The friend fears a wheel-bearing is going... My own ICEd vehicles has a long list of postponed repairs. I'd rather use the money to buy an EV. The friend is still not convinced but getting closer.

Interest rates are low. People can afford to buy an EV by borrowing and paying a little interest instead of supporting an ICE. Heck, my wife could afford an EV instead of paying traffic tickets...

I see what I see, be happy I see any part of the damn elephant and choose to drive and support the fact that electrics are the future for whatever my damn logic.  Hard sell rants can be negative to your cause and turn many people away.  Your wife will likely continue getting traffic tickets regardless of what she drives.  I'm fully capable of comparing the total cost of ownership on any vehicle.  I anticipate EV parts and labor will be as or more expensive, but with fewer parts expect fewer problems and visits to local servicing centers ........or calls to the mobile Rangers.  Apparently we are both EV owner wannabees with no actual ownership, driving, and maintenance experiences beyond what we think.
White Hot Solo #166
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#22
(09-11-2017, 11:57 AM)Rickb Wrote: Apparently we are both EV owner wannabees with no actual ownership, driving, and maintenance experiences beyond what we think.

I've been using and maintaining both ICE and electrical rotating machines and electronics for 50 years. Electrical stuff is an order of magnitude more reliable and much less trouble than the ICEd stuff. That's fact, not opinion. What's the mean time before failure of the usual ICE? ~1000h or 100K miles. Electric motors often run a decade continuously. Electronics can have MTBF of hundreds of thousands of hours of heavy use. Maintenance is a huge issue for ICEs. Consumers are becoming aware of the advantages of EVs beyond zero emissions.

My wife chose and bought our SUV ten years ago and refused to consider that by now she will have paid ~$2000 just for oil changes, $15000 for fuel, $5000 for repairing stuff that broke and now two sets of tires for about $1600. She could have paid for an EV instead. It would have been a lower $ cost and a Hell of a lot less trouble. I'm retired and she soon will retire so costs are going to matter a lot more. I think she will choose to drive an EV like Solo rather than pay endlessly huge amount for an SUV she doesn't need. I can give her a nudge by refusing to service the SUV just as I did for M$'s operating system. My wife has been using GNU/Linux trouble-free for a decade. No re-re-reboots. No viruses. No slowing down.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#23
(09-11-2017, 04:17 PM)pogson Wrote:
(09-11-2017, 11:57 AM)Rickb Wrote: Apparently we are both EV owner wannabees with no actual ownership, driving, and maintenance experiences beyond what we think.

I've been using and maintaining both ICE and electrical rotating machines and electronics for 50 years. Electrical stuff is an order of magnitude more reliable and much less trouble than the ICEd stuff. That's fact, not opinion. What's the mean time before failure of the usual ICE? ~1000h or 100K miles. Electric motors often run a decade continuously. Electronics can have MTBF of hundreds of thousands of hours of heavy use. Maintenance is a huge issue for ICEs. Consumers are becoming aware of the advantages of EVs beyond zero emissions.

My wife chose and bought our SUV ten years ago and refused to consider that by now she will have paid ~$2000 just for oil changes, $15000 for fuel, $5000 for repairing stuff that broke and now two sets of tires for about $1600. She could have paid for an EV instead. It would have been a lower $ cost and a Hell of a lot less trouble. I'm retired and she soon will retire so costs are going to matter a lot more. I think she will choose to drive an EV like Solo rather than pay endlessly huge amount for an SUV she doesn't need. I can give her a nudge by refusing to service the SUV just as I did for M$'s operating system. My wife has been using GNU/Linux trouble-free for a decade. No re-re-reboots. No viruses. No slowing down.

There is a difference between being a wannabe and a hypocrite.

mr pogson, if you are so in favor of EV's and opposed to gas/diesel/lp/etc-powered vehicles, and if you believe the economics favor EV's, please feel free to sell all your fueled equipment and replace it with electric equipment.  If you don't really believe what you are preaching enough to act accordingly, please do not be surprise when those who hear/see your rants don't have any respect for your words.

The simple fact remains, and likely will continue to remain for some time, that EV;s do not make economic sense for most people.  Without governmental incentives/bribes/coercion, they would make sense for even fewer people.  In spite of your claims, your actions indicate that they do not make economic sense for you.

EV's are toys, luxury goods, and/or image purchases for the vast majority of their purchasers.  That is fine for that niche market, but it is only a niche market.  Free free to make whatever claims you like, but until you walk the walk, don't expect to be listened to.
I'm done.
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#24
(09-11-2017, 05:05 PM)flying_solo Wrote: EV's are toys, luxury goods, and/or image purchases for the vast majority of their purchasers.  That is fine for that niche market, but it is only a niche market.  Free free to make whatever claims you like, but until you walk the walk, don't expect to be listened to.

Two points:
  1. I advocated strongly for the Nissan Leaf ten years ago when my wife was shopping for a car but the full price, new, was a sticker shock and she liked the used SUV, so that's what we got. At the time I didn't even need a car because I worked in the north just metres from my work-places. I did not hesitate to hire a taxi to provide my transport when on vacation. In retrospect, the Leaf would have been a better deal except that my wife has hauled around lots of heavy stuff in it. We no longer need to haul much freight since the family has grown up and moved away and the landscaping here is almost finished. We can shop on the web or by telephone and get just about anything delivered that will fit on a truck: tractors from China, groceries, welding rods, steel, clothes, toys, ...
  2. Individually or together we can afford to buy one or two Solos. It's no one's business but our bankers love us and will gladly add to the remaining mortgage or whatever we want. I also have a pension which I manage and can take out lump sums or just an annuity. We have $hundreds of thousands equity in the property so a loan the size of Solo plus a solar charging station plus a soon to be implemented sewage line is small change. The only reason I haven't already obtained a Solo is because EMV hasn't ramped up production visibly (legally, I personally own the SUV but I can't get rid of it without risking murder or divorce or worse...). That's it. There is no moral turpitude, delusion or other defect in my planning or understanding of EVs. They certainly make sense for us and they are not a toy. Just ask governments, businesses and individuals who are using EVs today. When we will both be retired EVs will make even more sense. Leaf is OK but not optimal for our needs. A Leaf plus a Solo is not out of the question and would certainly meet all our needs. My claims are based on facts in evidence like the power-train of Solo and the published data on Leafs. Unless you think a cloud of Leaf owners is trying to deceive us all or EMV is flat out fraudulent, the technology of Solo will work. It's not terribly novel. It's tried and true, just rarely put in such a package.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#25
(09-11-2017, 06:21 PM)pogson Wrote:
(09-11-2017, 05:05 PM)flying_solo Wrote: EV's are toys, luxury goods, and/or image purchases for the vast majority of their purchasers.  That is fine for that niche market, but it is only a niche market.  Free free to make whatever claims you like, but until you walk the walk, don't expect to be listened to.

Two points:
  1. I advocated strongly for the Nissan Leaf ten years ago when my wife was shopping for a car but the full price, new, was a sticker shock and she liked the used SUV, so that's what we got. At the time I didn't even need a car because I worked in the north just metres from my work-places. I did not hesitate to hire a taxi to provide my transport when on vacation. In retrospect, the Leaf would have been a better deal except that my wife has hauled around lots of heavy stuff in it. We no longer need to haul much freight since the family has grown up and moved away and the landscaping here is almost finished. We can shop on the web or by telephone and get just about anything delivered that will fit on a truck: tractors from China, groceries, welding rods, steel, clothes, toys, ...
  2. Individually or together we can afford to buy one or two Solos. It's no one's business but our bankers love us and will gladly add to the remaining mortgage or whatever we want. I also have a pension which I manage and can take out lump sums or just an annuity. We have $hundreds of thousands equity in the property so a loan the size of Solo plus a solar charging station plus a soon to be implemented sewage line is small change. The only reason I haven't already obtained a Solo is because EMV hasn't ramped up production visibly (legally, I personally own the SUV but I can't get rid of it without risking murder or divorce or worse...). That's it. There is no moral turpitude, delusion or other defect in my planning or understanding of EVs. They certainly make sense for us and they are not a toy. Just ask governments, businesses and individuals who are using EVs today. When we will both be retired EVs will make even more sense. Leaf is OK but not optimal for our needs. A Leaf plus a Solo is not out of the question and would certainly meet all our needs. My claims are based on facts in evidence like the power-train of Solo and the published data on Leafs. Unless you think a cloud of Leaf owners is trying to deceive us all or EMV is flat out fraudulent, the technology of Solo will work. It's not terribly novel. It's tried and true, just rarely put in such a package.
I said nothing about a cloud of Leaf owners.  I am talking about you.  You choose not to own an EV and to own gas/diesel powered vehicles.  You obviously "don't believe" the cloud of Leaf owners, because you refuse to give up your ICE vehicles to own one (or more).  For you, clearly, only one EV possibly makes economic sense, and it isn't even available.  Since you have been advocating and/or ranting about EV's for at least 10 years, the dichotomy between your words and your actions is deafeningly obvious.

I have never heard of using Linux as a justification either for or against owning an EV.  That is just weird.

BTW where do you get "cloud" as a group description.
I'm done.
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#26
(09-12-2017, 12:06 AM)flying_solo Wrote: I said nothing about a cloud of Leaf owners.  I am talking about you.  You choose not to own an EV and to own gas/diesel powered vehicles.  You obviously "don't believe" the cloud of Leaf owners, because you refuse to give up your ICE vehicles to own one (or more).  For you, clearly, only one EV possibly makes economic sense, and it isn't even available.  Since you have been advocating and/or ranting about EV's for at least 10 years, the dichotomy between your words and your actions is deafeningly obvious.

I have never heard of using Linux as a justification either for or against owning an EV.  That is just weird.

BTW where do you get "cloud" as a group description.

There are many thousands of Leafs out there. They are reporting range v speed data that is more or less consistently showing Leafs work as advertised. I did not choose the SUV. My wife did while I was working in the North. She makes a lot of financial decisions in our family. I disagreed with her on this but that's what it is. We haven't desperately needed two cars there just being two of us at home but after all the landscaping is finished I need other projects to keep me busy and being able to leave the property in a Solo will be desirable. I want to shop, travel a bit, collect fruit, nuts, mushrooms, hunt and fish without taking the SUV away from my wife for days on end. Solo will do that economically and reliably for me. A Leaf is great overkill in transportation as far as I can see. Lift the hood and you see what could be an ICE. It looks like a car designed by an ICEd car maker, which is what it is, complete with weight, complexity and price. Solo fits my needs better and I would have one today if they were being built in bulk.

GNU/Linux was an analogy, a comparison of moving away from one technology to another to avoid lots of negatives. ICEs obviously have negatives: many moving parts, reciprocating parts, lubrication, gas-emissions, heat-emissions, inefficiency... My goals in life do not include supporting a dying technology but embracing its replacement. I've been loving electricity since about 1960 ISTR and it's great to see the strides that electrical and electronic technology have made.

I've been thinking and I'm going to announce to my wife that I no longer will support her need for an ICE as I used to support her need for her operating system from M$. She hated M$ too so that was easy. If I'm murdered in the next year or so, suspect my wife... I think I will delay the announcement until Solo is available because I really don't want her buying a Leaf. That's not hypocrisy. That's planning my survival. Smile
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#27
(09-12-2017, 12:08 PM)Rickb Wrote: You seem critical of EV size,  which shouldn't matter, when one of your primary goals is saving the planet.

I have no problem with a wide variety of EVs. Leaf and Tesla still fall short of Solo on moving one person from A to B efficiently. Weight and size are not optimal for that purpose. While Leaf and Tesla might save the planet for one person, Solo can move two people for about the same expenditure in money, energy and material. For 3 or more people Leaf would win the contest. Two Solos have about the same costs as one Leaf.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#28
Far be it for me to avoid picking at a year-old scab. Besides, it's bleeding anyway.

So, I'll cherry pick a couple of points, then duck to avoid becoming collateral damage. No friendly fire to be found here.

1. In a few days, I will buy my (likely) last new ICE vehicle.
'Likely' because of either time or changes to available transportation choices. I have to replace the Honda road pillow before it rolls over in the driveway.

2. I still contend that no big business (car manufacturer) builds electric cars because they want to save the planet.
It may be a happy coincidence, but not the driving force. They do it to make money, to avoid being left behind (also making money), and/or because electric is, or will be, cheaper to build (making money again).

C. As previously stated, Linux hurts my head- GNU or old.

INCOMING!

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#29
(09-12-2017, 07:24 PM)Qubit Wrote: no big business (car manufacturer) builds electric cars because they want to save the planet.

That may well be a rule but there are definitely exceptions to the rule, like Tesla. They are big and they could just as well have built gas-guzzlers with style... OTOH, it's probably also true that EVs are "token" zero-emission vehicles to keep the fleet of many makers within specs for harsh governmental regs. Heck, in some parts of the world governments have announced that ICEd vehicles are deprecated and will be banned soon. That's motivation, perhaps not to save the planet but to save the business. It's still not clear that a maker of gas-guzzlers can actually make money selling EVs. They have to walk a knife's edge between oversupply of one or the other market. I think Nissan gave it a good try but they don't push the EVs nearly as hard as they push the gas-guzzlers around here.

Governments are doing stuff in this realm but I think the world will change a lot more rapidly if consumers just refuse to buy ICEd vehicles just as they quit buying "desktop" PCs a few years back. Now there are a whole new crop of makers selling "smart" thingies that do some  of the work of a desktop PC but are nothing like them and the smart thingies outsell the old desktops by nearly a factor of 10. That change happened in less than a decade, about the lifetime of a PC. That could happen with EVs and it will happen sooner if products like Solo are readily available. I don't think year-long wait-times are helping but EMV will eventually get its act together and change will happen.
My blog is an eclectic list of rants and commentary about things for which I care. See MrPogson.com It's been around a decade...
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#30
(09-12-2017, 12:44 PM)pogson Wrote:
(09-12-2017, 12:08 PM)Rickb Wrote: You seem critical of EV size,  which shouldn't matter, when one of your primary goals is saving the planet.

I have no problem with a wide variety of EVs. Leaf and Tesla still fall short of Solo on moving one person from A to B efficiently. Weight and size are not optimal for that purpose. While Leaf and Tesla might save the planet for one person, Solo can move two people for about the same expenditure in money, energy and material. For 3 or more people Leaf would win the contest. Two Solos have about the same costs as one Leaf.

Not sure about the Canadian market, but here in the U.S., you can buy 2 used Leafs for the MSRP of a (still unavailable) Solo.  If everything (or even a reasonable portion) you say about EV's, ICE, and Leafs are true, the only rational thing to do would be for you to immediately sell your vehicle (not your wife's SUV), and purchase a nice, pre-owned Leaf.  Then you could easily demonstrate to your wife (and to all of us) just how wonderful EV life is, as opposed to just talking about your theories.
I'm done.
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