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Maintenance Poll Comments
#11
(10-29-2016, 10:58 PM)flying_solo Wrote: I guess that I'm an contrarian.  You left off "Nothing.  I do my own vehicle maintenance, and most of the repairs."

Let's look at a 2015 Nissan Leaf SL MSRP $35K. If you qualified for the full $7500 credit (which somebody still pays), that leaves $27,500.  Without any effort, I found one at at dealership (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...P9FC307828) for $15K (actually $14,979, but let's keep this to round numbers) wit 11,625 miles on it.  

For about $16-22K MSRP, you could have purchased a Honda Fit instead of the Leaf.  From the same website, I was able to find several used Fit's in the $15.5 to $21k range.  Here's a typical example of an LX CVT (the LX's were the low-end models) for $15.6K (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...54FM709477) with 12,231 miles on it.  The LX CVT MSRP was $16.5k, but let's assume this one was heavily optioned up to $19k.  

That would mean that the Leaf cost just over $1.00 per mile for depreciation.  The Fit cost (at most) about $0.28 per mile for depreciation.  With gas @ $2.80 per gallon (actually about $2.00 here), the Fit owner spent about  $1150 on gas.  The Leaf owner probably spent about $300 on electricity.

Assuming the Leaf had no maintenance costs, the Fit owner would have had to spend $8250 for maintenance for the Leaf to have broken even.  And that is after the $7500 that was paid for by taxpayers.

Line by line:
1.  True enough - about $50-75 every 7500 miles. Maybe $1000 total.
2.  Irrelevant until 100k.
3.  Irrelevant until 100k.
4.  Possibly once before 100k.  Well under $200.
5.  Seldom before 100k.
6.  Seldom before 100k.
7.  Seldom before 100k.
8. Pump - Seldom before 100k. Filter Possibly once before 100k. About $100-150.
9. 3-6 replacements before 100k.  $100-200 total.
10. Irrelevant before 100k.
11. I could refute line by line, but most of it is covered here.
12. Seldom before 100k.  Newer belts are almost all good for 100k. (As a note, cost at a shop is about $300-500, not the $900-1100 in the article.)

Things may well change in the future, but up until now, Battery costs and depreciation costs for EV's have far exceeded any savings on maintenance and repair costs.  While fuel costs spike from time to time, annualized over 7-8 years, gasoline historically is quite inexpensive.

Because the Solo will be the least expensive enclosed BEV in the U.S.A., the costs may prove to be competitive with a $15K ICE vehicle.  It is unlikely to be cheaper to operate (total costs including depreciation) than a $12k ICE vehicle, while giving up usability.

As far as the lifestyle benefits of not having to deal with these infrequent (other that fueling and oil changes), the best argument is not having to go to the gas station.  If that also keeps people away from coffee, soft drinks, and junk food, that might be a great benefit.  Both financially and health-wise.

I'm not saying "Don't buy an EV", just that the financial argument is not a solid one at this point.  Arguably, EV's (like ICE vehicles) need to be kept for an extended period time, or purchased used, to minimize their total cost of operation per mile.

Flying_solo,
    For the record, I enjoy contrarian thought. It helps me keep things (emotions) in perspective!
   Now, as far as any of the items on my list being "irrelevant", let's be gentlemen and admit someone at some point has to perform/pay for these maintenance items on ICE vehicles. Your only way out, is to buy a brand new ICE vehicle from a dealer - which comes w/ the manufacturer's warranty (covering most of the aforementioned items), buy a slightly used vehicle and get the remainder of the manufacturer's warranty, trade off either of these vehicles as said warranty expires for a new (newer) vehicle (a perpetual cycle all ICE manufacturers just love), buy a used vehicle from a dealer and buy a used vehicle warranty (which will cover a percentage - minus deductible - of the cost for repair. You can keep your older ICE car"chance it" and pray these things will just 'hold off' until you have the $ to do/pay the repair bill (which is where I currently find myself), lastly, you can move to a city and take public transportation everywhere you want to go.
   Now, I know this list (as with any list)   is by no means all-inclusive, I just wanted to demonstrate that most PEV's (the SOLO in particular) can be less expensive to maintain in the long run. My current family vehicle - a 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid - currently sits on 126,000 miles. I bought it new, and have loyally taken it to the Ford dealer for everything  in its lifetime. My wife and I are beginning to look for a replacement family vehicle and in consideration is a 2015 or 2016 Nissan Leaf. Because so many of them are coming off of leases and the original lessees took the 'hit' on the cost of a new PEV.  
   Yes, the battery pack (replacement) cost of a PEV is the big grey elephant in the middle of the room - I get that. But, (I tread lightly here), I expect replacement battery packs will surpass originals in both range and lower costs due to advancement in technology and manufacture. I could end up wrong (I bought into Sony Betamax forever ago), but I'm willing to take that risk for my peace of mind and as an example to my kids and grandkids.
   So, please, feel free to hit me w/ the contrarian thought train. I'm newer to this than I want to admit - and stubborn - but willing to concede when I'm obviously incorrect. Smile

(10-30-2016, 05:58 PM)DiscjockeyDale Wrote: Just to let you guys know, it's not my poll. It's just easy to miss and I wanted to make sure that everyone noticed it.

It's my poll..I just wanted something to print off and take my my mechanic next time my vehicle demands I take it to the shop Angry
2015 Nissan Leaf owner/lover
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#12
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(10-30-2016, 08:36 PM)STEPHENSOLO Wrote: It's my poll...
Nothing wrong with that. I like it.
Required listening... House of Lords - Can't find my way home
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#13
I like the list of reduced maintenance considerations.  I also lack interest in the mechanical skills department and have no desire to DIY maintain my own vehicles beyond scheduling an appointment with my local qualified servicing dealership.  

I've been fascinated by EVs for a long time, but the high cost and range anxiety prevented me from pulling the trigger.  The Solo will be the perfect trial experimental commuter EV.  A vehicle with a very specific purpose....to supplement the family car.  We are retired and downsized from 3 vehicles to one.......the Solo will provide us the convenience of having a FUNctional personal second vehicle ready to roll when the primary vehicle is unavailable.  We will likely be arguing over who takes the Solo over much of the seasonal calendar year.  

I agree with Stephen on the potential lower cost of ownership.  I ass.u.me a much lower cost to operate an EV over the lifetime of the vehicle and willing to find out through personal experience.  My big question is.........will the Solo be proven both affordable and reliable over time.  I had the same question about Elio Motors back in 2007-08 and recently determined that it's highly unlikely.
White Hot Solo #166
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#14
2. No more transmission fluid/filter changes
>>> Irrelevant until 100k
Wow - have they really upped it to 100k? I remember (my 90s & early 00s) vehicles requiring this as part of the 60k service.

5. No more starter Motor replacements
 Honestly, I've only had to do this once : on a 53 chevy (and I did it myself back in '78).

6. No more alternator replacements
>>> Irrelevant until 100k
I just had to do this on a ford with ~90K. (but never needed to on my toyota with 120+K miles)

7. No more muffler,Catalytic Converter/ Exhaust pipe/Exhaust manifold replacements
>>> Irrelevant until 100k
If you live in a place with snow and salted roads, this is every 3 years or so (at least it is for my mom-in-law)

8. No more fuel pump/fuel filter replacements
>>> Pump - Seldom before 100k. Filter Possibly once before 100k. About $100-150.
Again surprised by the stated mileage (for the filter). This *used* to be a 'every 24k-36k' job.

Regarding the 12V (starter) battery in ICEs, I have always been forced to change them in *every* vehicle I have ever owned every 4-6 years.

Also, just noticed no 'timing belt replacement' in the list, (which *used* to be a 60k service as well).

And I reiterate :
- No more time or money spent on smog tests !! (EVERY TWO YEARS)
- No more radiator flushes & anti-freeze changes (every 2 years) or new hoses (every 100k)
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#15
How about...
No replacing a rusted out gas tank.
No replacing a gas tank float.
No replacing rusted out gas lines.
No replacing tranny fluid lines.
No junking the vehicle because of a rusted frame.
No body work because of a rusting steel body.
No head gasket replacements.
No replacing fuel injectors.
No replacing heater cores.
No replacing water pumps.
No engine seal or gasket replacements.
No tranny seal or gasket replacements.

And @992lb, theoretically, there should be less wear on the Continental tires, the Wilwood brakes and the suspension.
Required listening... House of Lords - Can't find my way home
This version kicks. There's just no other way to describe it. Shivers. Turn...it...up!
Disclaimer: No false statistics were supported, displayed or harmed in the making of this post.
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#16
Again, I'm just a contrarian. We like to get people to look at both sides, but don't particularly care to make anyone else's decisions for them.

Hopefully the Solo will help usher in a new era of affordable, competitive electric vehicles.
I'm done.
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#17
(10-30-2016, 12:25 PM)Rickb Wrote: Paravil, does that mean you are requesting your reservation deposit refunds on the Solo and SRK?

Interesting mailman's story that relates to his fuel and maintenance costs of driving a Tesla on his 128 mile per day rural mail route.  He went from his $25-30 a day fuel cost to $3.00 a day with his EV.  6 days x $30 = $180/week expense, reduced to $18/week with the EV.  He states the only routine vehicle maintenance is dusting off his vehicle.

The USPS equipment maintenance allowance is 64.5 cents per mile or a minimum or $25.80 whichever is greater.  That's a daily vehicle allowance of $82.56 less a $3 charge.  He seems to be saving enough on fuel, the EMA allowance, and low maintenance costs to take a big bite out of his monthly payment on the Tesla.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6s14n9PXZx4

Rick, as I´ve stated previously, I certainly won´t contemplate purchasing both. And neither can be considered to be optimal. At the moment, the SRK might well be my choice (depending on whether they´ll ever be able to achieve the enclosure option). I have noted my reservations on the Solo design, but realise that professional testing might well prove me wrong (or, I suspect, might be devastating!).

... and I certainly don´t believe a word of the claimed savings when driving the Tesla! Has he included depreciation; and how has he calculated the added risk of experiencing a rapid (and unexpected) technological obsolescence? Has battery replacement been contemplated .... battery upgrade, replacement of battery cells? Even the ecological effect of EVs should, at least be critically analysed. How much energy is used in their production, and in the production of their batteries, of their fuel? I think we should be told ....
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#18
(10-31-2016, 05:32 AM)paravil Wrote:
(10-30-2016, 12:25 PM)Rickb Wrote: Paravil, does that mean you are requesting your reservation deposit refunds on the Solo and SRK?

Interesting mailman's story that relates to his fuel and maintenance costs of driving a Tesla on his 128 mile per day rural mail route.  He went from his $25-30 a day fuel cost to $3.00 a day with his EV.  6 days x $30 = $180/week expense, reduced to $18/week with the EV.  He states the only routine vehicle maintenance is dusting off his vehicle.

The USPS equipment maintenance allowance is 64.5 cents per mile or a minimum or $25.80 whichever is greater.  That's a daily vehicle allowance of $82.56 less a $3 charge.  He seems to be saving enough on fuel, the EMA allowance, and low maintenance costs to take a big bite out of his monthly payment on the Tesla.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6s14n9PXZx4

Rick, as I´ve stated previously, I certainly won´t contemplate purchasing both. And neither can be considered to be optimal. At the moment, the SRK might well be my choice (depending on whether they´ll ever be able to achieve the enclosure option). I have noted my reservations on the Solo design, but realise that professional testing might well prove me wrong (or, I suspect, might be devastating!).

... and I certainly don´t believe a word of the claimed savings when driving the Tesla! Has he included depreciation; and how has he calculated the added risk of experiencing a rapid (and unexpected)  technological obsolescence? Has battery replacement been contemplated .... battery upgrade, replacement of battery cells? Even the ecological effect of EVs should, at least be critically analysed. How much energy is used in their production, and in the production of their batteries, of their fuel? I think we should be told ....
I agree.  Although depreciation and maintenance is a consideration on any vehicle.  The mailman's comment related to savings on fuel cost only.  

The other info you mention is out there.........simply to complicated and politically motivated.  We have to first find the facts, and then manipulate them at our leisure.  I am a fan of both ICE and Electrics.  I hope to have the opportunity for some personal experience with either the SRK, Solo, and the Tesla Model 3 soon. 

Test drives will be the decision making factor on either the SRK or Solo Choice.  The SRK 2 seater with enclosure panels is highest on my preference list based on it's apparent driving comfort and function.
White Hot Solo #166
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#19
Okay, my S10 was making a grinding noise in gear when I would depress the accelerator pedal. Took it to my mechanic - turns ouy my rear u-joint has gone bad. Angry No U-joints on the SOLO!  Rolleyes I still don't believe I'll be replacing one set of problems (ICE vehicles) for another set of problems (PEV vehicle)....
2015 Nissan Leaf owner/lover
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#20
(10-31-2016, 04:58 PM)STEPHENSOLO Wrote: Okay, my S10 was making a grinding noise in gear when I would depress the accelerator pedal. Took it to my mechanic - turns out my rear u-joint has gone bad. Angry No U-joints on the SOLO!  Rolleyes I still don't believe I'll be replacing one set of problems (ICE vehicles) for another set of problems (PEV vehicle)....

Even expensive cars can have issues.  Consumer Reports does not recommend Tesla's. 
http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesl...rformance/

Lots of issues with vehicles are not based on them having an electric or gasoline power train.

Just a few examples: 
Suspension
Tires
NVH (squeaks, rattles, wind noise, etc may be even more noticeable in an EV)
A/C, heat, ventilation
Interior - seats, insulation, carpeting, instrumentation, entertainment systems, etc
Paint, glass, body panels - fit & quality
Lighting
Brakes (entire system, not just pad wear rate)

The fact is that modern (ie late-model) gasoline-powered vehicles are quite efficient, quite clean, quite reliable, and are low-maintenance and cost-effective.

EV's are offering only minor incremental improvements, at a quite high initial purchase price, as well as increased pollution in the manufacture of some/many components.  "EV" is not a magic talisman eliminating the need for all repairs and maintenance.

There are good reasons to stick with ICE, just as there are good reasons to go with EV.  I'm like a broken record in my belief that the free market, without government rewards and penalties, would yield the optimal solution for the transportation needs of the world.

I like what I see so far with the Solo, but ElectraMeccanica will have to offer a "best use of $15K" argument to attract a large number of purchasers.  And reduced maintenance costs will likely be part of that argument.
I'm done.
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