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Maintenance Poll Comments
#1
(10-29-2016, 05:33 PM)STEPHENSOLO Wrote: I'd love to start a new thread (an important thread for those of us new to PEV's) Please, everyone feel free to add to this thread. I suspect it will grow to be quite a long list! Dale, please feel free to help out and merge/edit as you see fit. This should help some make final decisions based on long term costs of ICE vs. PEV. 

I'll start us out:
1. No more oil/filter changes
2. No more transmission fluid/filter changes
3. No more replacing spark plugs
4. No more serpentine Belt replacements
5. No more starter Motor replacements
6. No more alternator replacements
7. No more muffler,Catalytic Converter/ Exhaust pipe/Exhaust manifold replacements
8. No more fuel pump/fuel filter replacements
9. No more air filter replacements (for the engine intake)
10. No more O2 sensor replacements
11.see Rickb post below
12.Replace timing belt/chain

This list took me three minutes....With other brains/experiences, this list will grow expotentially. What a commercial this would make for EM & the SOLO!

This may seem odd, but 11.  No more wasted time scheduling and dealing with routine maintenance and servicing appointments.  No more wasted time on trips to the gas station......averaging 400 trips in the first 100,000 miles of ownership.  Personal time has major value to many people.  

Interesting comparison of ICE/EV maintenance costs incurred during the first 100,000 miles of driving.

http://insideevs.com/ev-vs-ice-maintenan...000-miles/
White Hot Solo #166
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#2
I guess that I'm an contrarian. You left off "Nothing. I do my own vehicle maintenance, and most of the repairs."

Let's look at a 2015 Nissan Leaf SL MSRP $35K. If you qualified for the full $7500 credit (which somebody still pays), that leaves $27,500. Without any effort, I found one at at dealership (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...P9FC307828) for $15K (actually $14,979, but let's keep this to round numbers) wit 11,625 miles on it.

For about $16-22K MSRP, you could have purchased a Honda Fit instead of the Leaf. From the same website, I was able to find several used Fit's in the $15.5 to $21k range. Here's a typical example of an LX CVT (the LX's were the low-end models) for $15.6K (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...54FM709477) with 12,231 miles on it. The LX CVT MSRP was $16.5k, but let's assume this one was heavily optioned up to $19k.

That would mean that the Leaf cost just over $1.00 per mile for depreciation. The Fit cost (at most) about $0.28 per mile for depreciation. With gas @ $2.80 per gallon (actually about $2.00 here), the Fit owner spent about $1150 on gas. The Leaf owner probably spent about $300 on electricity.

Assuming the Leaf had no maintenance costs, the Fit owner would have had to spend $8250 for maintenance for the Leaf to have broken even. And that is after the $7500 that was paid for by taxpayers.

Line by line:
1. True enough - about $50-75 every 7500 miles. Maybe $1000 total.
2. Irrelevant until 100k.
3. Irrelevant until 100k.
4. Possibly once before 100k. Well under $200.
5. Seldom before 100k.
6. Seldom before 100k.
7. Seldom before 100k.
8. Pump - Seldom before 100k. Filter Possibly once before 100k. About $100-150.
9. 3-6 replacements before 100k. $100-200 total.
10. Irrelevant before 100k.
11. I could refute line by line, but most of it is covered here.
12. Seldom before 100k. Newer belts are almost all good for 100k. (As a note, cost at a shop is about $300-500, not the $900-1100 in the article.)

Things may well change in the future, but up until now, Battery costs and depreciation costs for EV's have far exceeded any savings on maintenance and repair costs. While fuel costs spike from time to time, annualized over 7-8 years, gasoline historically is quite inexpensive.

Because the Solo will be the least expensive enclosed BEV in the U.S.A., the costs may prove to be competitive with a $15K ICE vehicle. It is unlikely to be cheaper to operate (total costs including depreciation) than a $12k ICE vehicle, while giving up usability.

As far as the lifestyle benefits of not having to deal with these infrequent (other that fueling and oil changes), the best argument is not having to go to the gas station. If that also keeps people away from coffee, soft drinks, and junk food, that might be a great benefit. Both financially and health-wise.

I'm not saying "Don't buy an EV", just that the financial argument is not a solid one at this point. Arguably, EV's (like ICE vehicles) need to be kept for an extended period time, or purchased used, to minimize their total cost of operation per mile.
I'm done.
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#3
-> No more time or money spent on SMOG CHECKS !!

-> no more radiator flushes or new hoses.
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#4
(10-29-2016, 10:58 PM)I flying_solo Wrote: I guess that I'm an contrarian.  You left off "Nothing.  I do my own vehicle maintenance, and most of the repairs."

Let's look at a 2015 Nissan Leaf SL MSRP $35K. If you qualified for the full $7500 credit (which somebody still pays), that leaves $27,500.  Without any effort, I found one at at dealership (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...P9FC307828) for $15K (actually $14,979, but let's keep this to round numbers) wit 11,625 miles on it.  

For about $16-22K MSRP, you could have purchased a Honda Fit instead of the Leaf.  From the same website, I was able to find several used Fit's in the $15.5 to $21k range.  Here's a typical example of an LX CVT (the LX's were the low-end models) for $15.6K (http://www.thecarconnection.com/inventor...54FM709477) with 12,231 miles on it.  The LX CVT MSRP was $16.5k, but let's assume this one was heavily optioned up to $19k.  

That would mean that the Leaf cost just over $1.00 per mile for depreciation.  The Fit cost (at most) about $0.28 per mile for depreciation.  With gas @ $2.80 per gallon (actually about $2.00 here), the Fit owner spent about  $1150 on gas.  The Leaf owner probably spent about $300 on electricity.

Assuming the Leaf had no maintenance costs, the Fit owner would have had to spend $8250 for maintenance for the Leaf to have broken even.  And that is after the $7500 that was paid for by taxpayers.

Line by line:
1.  True enough - about $50-75 every 7500 miles. Maybe $1000 total.
2.  Irrelevant until 100k.
3.  Irrelevant until 100k.
4.  Possibly once before 100k.  Well under $200.
5.  Seldom before 100k.
6.  Seldom before 100k.
7.  Seldom before 100k.
8. Pump - Seldom before 100k. Filter Possibly once before 100k. About $100-150.
9. 3-6 replacements before 100k.  $100-200 total.
10. Irrelevant before 100k.
11. I could refute line by line, but most of it is covered here.
12. Seldom before 100k.  Newer belts are almost all good for 100k. (As a note, cost at a shop is about $300-500, not the $900-1100 in the article.)

Things may well change in the future, but up until now, Battery costs and depreciation costs for EV's have far exceeded any savings on maintenance and repair costs.  While fuel costs spike from time to time, annualized over 7-8 years, gasoline historically is quite inexpensive.

Because the Solo will be the least expensive enclosed BEV in the U.S.A., the costs may prove to be competitive with a $15K ICE vehicle.  It is unlikely to be cheaper to operate (total costs including depreciation) than a $12k ICE vehicle, while giving up usability.

As far as the lifestyle benefits of not having to deal with these infrequent (other that fueling and oil changes), the best argument is not having to go to the gas station.  If that also keeps people away from coffee, soft drinks, and junk food, that might be a great benefit.  Both financially and health-wise.

I'm not saying "Don't buy an EV", just that the financial argument is not a solid one at this point.  Arguably, EV's (like ICE vehicles) need to be kept for an extended period time, or purchased used, to minimize their total cost of operation per mile.

Battery replacement is an expense factor to consider, however so is a major overhaul and or a transmission repair as a possible expense factor in owning an ice.  It seems that every time I take my vehicle into the shop for even a minor repair it's $500-1000.  Perhaps the battery replacement will seem like a bargain.  Now, I will be able to do my own service on the EV.   Also, more time for coffee and donuts.
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#5
If (5) & (6) (starter and alternator) need replacing, what about the electric motor on an EV? Surely it will not be likely to last as long as a starter or an alternator that are not in permanent use (and be much more expensive).
And (4) Drive belt replacement is certainly not going to be eliminated on the Solo.
Apart from that, battery replacement has still not been adequately investigated (how long do they really last? Do some cells need replacing regularly? What´s the cost of replacement?). And depreciation is going to be another factor to consider carefully (how fast will technological advances make the present product redundant?).
`Not having to re-fill at a sevice station´ can hardly be considered much of an advantage to an urban dweller who might have to go much further to find a charging point, and then have to wait for a space to become available .... AND wait for his own vehicle to trickle charge.
This all seems to be a case of rushing in with eyes wide shut.

Think I´ll keep my fuel guzzling motorbikes quite a bit longer before I park my rear end in a tart´s handbag like the Solo too quickly.
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#6
Don't forget to vote in the little two-choice poll at the top of this thread. Smile
I just wanted to draw everybody's attention to it because it's easy to miss it there.
Required listening... House of Lords - Can't find my way home
This version kicks. There's just no other way to describe it. Shivers. Turn...it...up!
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#7
Paravil, does that mean you are requesting your reservation deposit refunds on the Solo and SRK?

Interesting mailman's story that relates to his fuel and maintenance costs of driving a Tesla on his 128 mile per day rural mail route.  He went from his $25-30 a day fuel cost to $3.00 a day with his EV.  6 days x $30 = $180/week expense, reduced to $18/week with the EV.  He states the only routine vehicle maintenance is dusting off his vehicle.

The USPS equipment maintenance allowance is 64.5 cents per mile or a minimum or $25.80 whichever is greater.  That's a daily vehicle allowance of $82.56 less a $3 charge.  He seems to be saving enough on fuel, the EMA allowance, and low maintenance costs to take a big bite out of his monthly payment on the Tesla.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6s14n9PXZx4
White Hot Solo #166
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#8
(10-30-2016, 11:54 AM)DiscjockeyDale Wrote: Don't forget to vote in the little two-choice poll at the top of this thread. Smile
I just wanted to draw everybody's attention to it because it's easy to miss it there.

Dale, that pole is like the old "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question with only Yes and No as the permitted responses.  When all the answers mean essentially the same thing, the question is meaningless.

(10-30-2016, 02:59 AM)paravil Wrote: If (5) & (6) (starter and alternator) need replacing, what about the electric motor on an EV? Surely it will not be likely to last as long as a starter or an alternator that are not in permanent use (and be much more expensive).
And (4) Drive belt replacement is certainly not going to be eliminated on the Solo.
Apart from that, battery replacement has still not been adequately investigated (how long do they really last? Do some cells need replacing regularly? What´s the cost of replacement?). And depreciation is going to be another factor to consider carefully (how fast will technological advances make the present product redundant?).
`Not having to re-fill at a sevice station´ can hardly be considered much of an advantage to an urban dweller who might have to go much further to find a charging point, and then have to wait for a space to become available .... AND wait for his own vehicle to trickle charge.
This all seems to be a case of rushing in with eyes wide shut.

Think I´ll keep my fuel guzzling motorbikes quite a bit longer before I park my rear end in a tart´s handbag like the Solo too quickly.

I'm not sure I've heard that one before.  A tart's handbag?  Mmmm.  Okay.  Does that mean that the Solo is compact, attractive and expensive?  Or that it is just for show?  Or that it probably has a nickel-plated derringer inside?  Inquiring minds want to know.  I don't hang out with tarts, so I don't know much about their handbags.

Like you, it makes much better financial sense to keep my motorcycle(s) than to purchase a Solo.  The payoff would take 25-50 years under current conditions for me.  Swapping the car for the Solo would make more sense.  It would only take 5-10 years to break even then.  LOL

To be honest, buying a Solo would be an emotional decision for me, not a logical one.  Having a fun, small, enclosed trike appeals to me.  I can live with electric and the reduced range, but those are not selling points for me.
I'm done.
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#9
Dale, I'm old and like the easy yes or no pole response............requiring less thought and a 50/50 chance to get it right! Smile
White Hot Solo #166
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#10
Just to let you guys know, it's not my poll. It's just easy to miss and I wanted to make sure that everyone noticed it.
Required listening... House of Lords - Can't find my way home
This version kicks. There's just no other way to describe it. Shivers. Turn...it...up!
Disclaimer: No false statistics were supported, displayed or harmed in the making of this post.
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